Atlanta Outdoor Club

OK, everyone's first reaction will be no way. But read it through and think about it before replying. Don't reply only if you disagree. Reply either way, as we're going to use this to set policy.

One of my jobs is to adjust the mileage rate that the web site uses for calculating carpool costs. When I examined it, I found it hadn't been changed in a very long time (years).
The current mileage rate, according to the IRS, is 50 cents per mile. This includes gas, oil, tires, maintenance, and wear & tear. It is designed to reflect the true cost of driving a vehicle.

I have corrected the previous 18 cents / mile to the current 50 cents per mile. Some people think this is too much. I disagree.

A lot of people don't realize that gas is only about 1/3 of the actual cost of driving your vehicle. There's also oil, tires, maintenance, and wear & tear. Wear & tear is calculated by the fact that your vehicle is only good for so many miles. It will not run forever. You also paid good money for it (and may still be paying for it).

Remember, the IRS is not a charity. They aren't going to give you any more credit than they have to. They actually hire an outside consulting company to calculate the mileage rate for them.

One of the arguments I heard was that we shouldn't raise it because it makes trips too expensive and people won't like it. Well, maybe they won't like it, but is it fair to make the driver absorb all those costs themselves? I know on my vehicle, it costs me 16 cents / mile for gas to use drive it, and 23 cents / mile for wear & tear (plus more if you add all the smaller stuff).

I've also heard that carpooling isn't about wear & tear, maintenance, and tires. It's only about gas. Then let me propose an analogy. A lot of you are friends and would loan me your car if I really needed it and you weren't using it yourself at the time. Now, what if I drove it cross country and back, putting an extra 10,000 miles on it. You'd be very angry. Even if I gave it back with a full tank of gas. You'd say the gas isn't the point, the 10,000 miles is and that I was wrong to do so. This is an extreme analogy, but the point is still valid.

The reason we have the mileage posted is so that there's a standard by which to state the costs of driving. There's nothing in there that states drivers have to charge the full amount. But it does give them a document that says how much it actually costs them to drive.

I also heard that we shouldn't post any carpool costs at all and that all drivers have to negotiate expenses with each passenger at the carpool location. This is crazy. Members won't sign up unless they know how much it's going to cost them when they sign up. Other members will refuse to drive rather than deal with the uncertainty of actually getting reimbursed, causing a shortage of drivers. In some countries, it's common to negotiate for everything, but here, we like our prices set.

Also, for people that don't want to pay the high amount of carpooling, then they can drive if they think that's going to save them money.

To wrap this up. I think it's a fair amount to charge. No one is making any profit. They are getting reimbursed for their costs only.

Now it's time to reply to this. Agree? Disagree? Speak up, because this may change the current policy.

Tom

I've been stiffed and short changed so many times I can't even tell you. However, I fully agree that we should make people aware of the cost!


Ever notice how the majority of the members that don't want to drive have leased vehicles;)

Yeah I dont see any reason not to post the cost. The amount is what I get reimbursed by my company when I drive. As long as you post the new amount with a caveat I dont see any problem. I would just say something to the effect that this is the cost amount per mile including gas, wear and tear, ect. Just leave it up to the driver weather they charge that much or just gas. I have never gone off of the website personally when I drive. For long trips here is how we typically do it.

Add up the total of all gas from all vehicles. Divide that by the total number of participants and everyone that didnt drive pays 5 or 10 bucks more. This always works out well and the drivers usually end up paying about half what everyone else did.

.18 to .50 is certainly a significant increase. But 18 cents was too low, so it's good that the issue is being addressed. 50 cents does seem a little high to me, but I can't really disagree with your logic in getting to that number.

While some drivers may ask for less than the .50 per mile, that is clearly the guideline we are establishing. Well it is probably better to be a little aggressive with that guideline than too conservative. At least that gives the drivers the room to ask for what they think their actual estimated cost is.

Perhaps the multiplier should be reevalued on a quarterly basis, given the recent volatility in gas prices. Obviously, the real cost is going to change a good bit if gas goes from $3.20 a gallon to $3.75 (or if it becomes cheaper somehow). I thought that the current gas price played a part in the calculation before, but maybe I am wrong about that.

For some of the longer trips, Nick's approach is a good alternative...I know that Lee does something like this on his more distant events as well.

With this added cost to members, trip leaders will probably want to take even greater care in trying to evenly distribute people per vehicle (and use the minimum number of vehicles of course).

Hey guys...well, I disagree with NOT posting the mileage amount and agree that people need to know what they will be paying for when they sign up. I can see a lot of members being more pissed off to sign up for an event that doesn't show a cost to then get there and realize, "Man, I have to pay my driver $15?".

I do think jumping from $.18 to $.50 is a pretty big jump although I understand the reason. And while I agree with "redefining" the term "carpool cost" to include maintenence, tires, etc, let's just see how the members react. If we start seeing a decrease in registrations for day trips, I would think that might be an indication of some member reaction.

As you said, it's really up to the driver to tell his passengers how much to pay, and I've never really had a problem with people not paying. This will continue to give the driver a tool to determine costs. It's up to him whether he charges and divides with the $.50 in mind.

That's what I've got.

V

I definitely think that the 18 cents per mile is too low. That barely covers the gas. My company reimburses me 50 cents per mile, which they get from the IRS. I think it would be a good number to post to give everyone an idea of what to expect. And then the drivers themselves can always fine tune that number to their vehicle and charge what they are comfortable with. There is actual "cost of ownership" information for specific vehicles on the internet. I believe the IRS also calculates insurance and opportunity costs into their number. Which don't necessary need to be passed down to others.

Tom, the 50 cents per mile is the BUSINESS mileage rate with the IRS. The recreation mileage rate is significantly lower. This is NOT business mileage and treating it as such is ridiculous.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,, ... 30,00.html

See the above IRS publication. You will see that all non-BUSINESS mileage is under 20 cents per mile.

Additionally, the 50 cents per mile rate leaves the driver with a profit, which is extremely unfair to others participating. I know this for a fact as this is the rate I charge for mileage at work (the IRS's intended use of this rate).

How do you figure the driver's making a profit? This is what the IRS allows businesses to deduct from their taxes because that is what they calculate the actual costs of driving a vehicle to be. No more, no less.

The only way someone makes a profit, is if they are driving an inexpensive vehicle that get great gas mileage. On the other hand, if they have an expensive vehicle and low gas mileage, they will lose money. The 50 cents is an average.

I support having the carpool cost posted only as a reminder or guide. Obviously drivers should be reimbursed, but once again it seems we're getting carried away by trying to apply hard and fast rules to every trip and every situation. The trip leader needs to take charge and establish what will happen on each of his/her trips, including carpool costs.

For example on Vanessa's rafting trip all participants benefited from Lee's huge truck, so splitting all car's gas costs collectively made sense as Lee suggests. On the other hand if I can drive my 30mpg Mazda to a hike that has a paved parking lot such as Tallulah Gorge, then I'm not splitting gas with some joker in a huge SUV.

Where do you read that it's a hard and fast rule? Quoted from my original post:

The reason we have the mileage posted is so that there's a standard by which to state the costs of driving. There's nothing in there that states drivers have to charge the full amount. But it does give them a document that says how much it actually costs them to drive.

This is nothing but a guide for them to use.

Tom, the rates for moving and medical are 19 cents per mile. This is based on the same exact study upon which the IRS bases the rates for businesses. I say it's a profit because it is. When I drive to and from Gwinnett County for work I can bill this in as $36.00. It does not cost anywhere near that to maintain my car for a 72 mile drive, and I drive an SUV so the small car argument does not need to be used here. Treating AOC mileage as business mileage is absurd and unfair. Lee and Nick have included a "wear and tear" charge of $3.00 per person on long trips (6 hour drive) which seems reasonable, but 50 cents per mile is not.

tcollins wrote:Where do you read that it's a hard and fast rule? Quoted from my original post:

The reason we have the mileage posted is so that there's a standard by which to state the costs of driving. There's nothing in there that states drivers have to charge the full amount. But it does give them a document that says how much it actually costs them to drive.

This is nothing but a guide for them to use.

Then why all the discussion? If you don't like the mileage rate posted then just ignore it. Problem solved.

The point is that people who use this guide and are uninformed of the basis for it will be ripping people off/getting ripped off because the inappropriate scale is being used. The business mileage rate should not be used for recreational purposes.

I've done some research on my car, a 2003 Mazda Tribute and this is what I came up with:
Car depreciated over 200,000 miles (I'm being very optimistic) = 12.5 cents per mile
Gas at $3.19 per gallon at 24 mpg = 13.5 cents per mile
Maintenance = 7 cents per mile (per Edmunds.com)
That's 33 cents per mile for a car that will be owned until it falls apart. Most people's cost will probably be much higher than this.
Just food for thought.